I have learned a lot from Dr. Cowan when it comes to "germ theory" and I am thankful for that.
Unfortunately, Cowan's team already has a bias that if someone who comes into their clinic is on a vegan diet and having joint pain then it is likely due to NOT eating animals (claiming that vegans are collagen deficient). They wouldn't likely "diagnose" someone who eats meat with collagen deficiency who has the same condition, for example. This is a bias and unscientific perspective. It would be difficult for me to go to a health professional who believes (as it is a belief system) that being on a 100 percent plant based diet is inherently deficient. I have been vegan for 36 years and would not compromise my veganism because of fear based, ignorant, and bias perspectives. I was told many years ago that I could not be healthy as a vegan without some sort of animal supplementation, I have been told I could not have a healthy vegan pregnancy or raise a healthy vegan child. This is based on BS not evidence and glad that these health professionals did not intimidate me and convince me of this nonsense. Who are the animals that humans routinely exploit for their strength? Horses, oxen, elephants, the list goes on. These animals are complete herbivores; they get all of their protein (which is where collagen comes from) from plants. I am a vegan first and foremost for the animals of the world, I will not compromise my vegan principles for the BS "cures" of those who have a carnist perspective. With that all said, I am in my mid fifties and my joints feel fantastic. My vegan diet plays a big role in this, so does all things I seek to do that align with my vegan values, including being in nature, practicing yoga and qigong, and surrounding myself with good people, including my amazing vegan husband and son. Vegans be cautious of these biases.
Dawn, you do a great job, and I love your work but felt I must address this issue. Thank you.
People can, and should, make their own decisions about the food they choose to eat.
The most important parts of the message of the New Biology Clinic, as far as I'm concerned, are that they consider what's going on in the person's whole life, not just in one part of the body, and that they encourage people to take responsibility for their own health. That's why I support their work.
Hi Dawn, I totally respect that notion "that they encourage people to take responsibility for their own health." Asher gave a couple of general examples, one of which was saying, paraphrasing, "Like you (Dawn) being on a vegan diet and coming to us with joint pain, it may be a collagen issue." That is an immediate bias. Why would vegans be lower in collagen than omnivores? I have for many years been a part of a private social media vegan pregnancy and parenting group. There were several pregnant women who came in frantic because they were told by their doctors that they needed to eat animal products to carry a healthy baby and/or to produce healthy breast milk. We had to calm them down and explain that these doctors do not know anything about what they are talking about. I breastfed my son until he was about 4 1/2 years old, exclusively for more than 6 months. I produced ample milk for his demands. There are many other examples I can give you, but I think you get the point. Vegans need to be cautious when they go to health professionals who have an immediate bias toward the notion that a vegan diet is inferior or deficient. Besides B12, which I question as it is really a microbe that our body absorbs, and is in fertile, healthy soil, all other nutrients, macro or micro, originally come from plants. Animals whose flesh is high in any of these nutrients, got them from consuming plants directly, or in the case of carnivores, they got them from the herbivorous animals they ate who first got them from the plants. The plant kingdom offers everything we need. We are also primates, like gorillas, who get all their nutrients from plants. This info goes out to all our vegan friends.
Some vegans have stopped being vegan because of the biases they have heard, particularly from health professionals, that are unfounded and this is tragic. How many people submitted to getting vaccinated out of fear and based on bias, unfounded perspectives? I remember Pam Popper saying in the past to never make medical decisions out of fear. Let this resonate with our vegan spirits. May we practice natural and holistic modalities or approaches that align with our vegan values. Peace.
Hello Carrie. Like you, I've not had animal products for many years [since 1980] & find comments saying my diet causes or will cause problems irritating, in the least. Because I know it bloody well hasnt, doesn't & won't. But I didn't want to state that on Dawn's podcast post. It was her first interview & felt it would have been a tad rude & insensitive. But hay, here I am saying it anyway 😏
The one vegan/collagen comment Asher made [at 3:15 ish] is the only thing so far that I disagree with in relation to their way of working [I'm probably not the only one]. But he did use the word 'may' & it was, as you stated, one of two examples . You suggested he directed it at Dawn - I can't hear or construed that. I did notice Dawn didn't indicate that she agreed with what was said, or talk about it further
I myself would not poo poo someone's work because I don't agree with 100% of what someone says. So I won't use the fact that Asher appears to briefly promote eating meat in the first interview I'd heard with him as a reason not to look into the Cowan's clinic. After all, it's not the foundation of what they do, & it was - again, as you stated - one of two examples he gave.
Rev. Tina thank you for your response. I am not poo pooing the Clinic's work but warning vegans who may decide to go to someone who is considered holistic (or otherwise) who already have a bias that a vegan diet is inferior or deficient. I state this because it has happened to me in the past, particularly when I was a young vegan and to many other vegans I know. A holistic practitioner like this may not be the right fit for a said vegan. When Asher brought up that example, he was suggesting that a vegan may need to eat collagen rich foods (ie: animal products). Thus, this theoretical vegan, if complying, would no longer be acting as a vegan and thus compromising his or her principles unnecessarily, which is quite tragic. I was not trying to be insensitive when addressing this to Dawn, who is a vegan by the way. I respect all of Dawn's work and have shared her articles and her substack in general and her coauthored book What Really Makes You Ill (donating several copies to local libraries) to many people. Would I go to a holistic professional who sees my diet as inferior or deprived? Not likely, unless we weren't going to talk about it (if I was going for a massage or cranio sacral therapy for example).
One thing I didn't mention is, did Asher know Dawn was on a vegan diet? Probably so. So, it could be construed as a pointed remark, which is not cool. Am I a fan of Dr. Tom Cowan when he speaks of the fraud of germ theory? Yes, I have learned a lot from him and others, including, Dawn. Ironically understanding this fraud has enhanced and supported my natural approach to veganism. I love how things like this happen. Peace!
I'd go to the Cowan's clinic even though they may consider my diet 'inferior'. Because I'm sure they're professional enough to not look down their nose at me & adapt their advice &/or any treatment accordingly. Any 'health practitioner' that can't or won't do that should not be doing that job.
‘Vegan' is a label I don't use for myself though, as there are too many 'vegan' folks that treat it like a religion - a strict one at that, with rules that MUST be adhered to. I've seen many with an air of superiority & 'it's my way or the highway ' kind of attitude. I won't allow anyone or thing to dictate what my principles are or should be. I like to learn for myself - from my own mistakes, & make my own decisions & 'rules'.
Anyway, no point going round in circles eh. It's been an informative natter, I've learnt quite a bit about you!
I would consider going to someone who respected my vegan values as well. Meaning they would respect the fact that I would not submit to eating animal foods. Best.
I appreciate your thoughts but can I ask you a question more or less personal? What is your experience with living in a stable community with grand parents, parents and kids with a history of at least 100 years?
CM, not sure why you are directing this question to me? I don't know anyone who has had a generational history like you described, which is a loss of traditional human culture due to modern society. I think this is why some people are attracted to intentional communities, living closer to a more subsistence way of life with the help of a "family" or community of likeminded people.
I witnessed living in such community when I was a kid. My grandparents used to live in the country side in a community of about 800 people. And around that community, there were others smaller or bigger.
Their main source of food was animal products. I would say that their diet was comprised of about 80% animal products and 20% vegetables for six months of the year during summer and fall, and almost 100% animal products in the winter and spring.
One family with seven kids used to have cows, pigs, sheep and lots of birds. They used to cultivate potatoes and cereals but those were used to feed the animals and the birds.
I never heard of health issues at the time. They were living in their 90s, strong and physically fit.
As my parents moved to the urban area, we still kept the same way of eating lots of fats and meats. And my family rarely went visiting doctors.
But something happened about 30 years ago when I saw a lot of advertising and more and more people moved away from that type of diet into so called healthier options. And then I realized how many people got sicker and sicker. I still wonder to this day how hard is to find people to remember those times.
To me, what I witnessed is the only experience I trust. I respect your choice, don’t get me wrong but I think we need more time to really be sure if something is good or bad especially when it’s about food. Every single day, the media will announce another great discovery of something healthier than ever but then people get sicker and sicker. And I don’t think it’s not related to food.
I became a vegan for animal rights reasons first and foremost. But I learned a great deal about the benefits of a plant-based diet for human health at the same time I was shifting to a vegan diet. Donald Watson coined the term vegan in 1944 I believe and started the UK's Vegan Society. He lived until about 95. The year before he died, he did an intense mountain climb so his quality life appeared to be very good as well. Amos Bronson Alcott, the father of Louisa May, was a "vegan" back in the 1800s before the word was coined. Anyway, for me, I can be healthy on a vegan diet, better to be mostly whole foods, I am grateful for that because it aligns with my ethics or values. I am not saying I couldn't be healthy as an omnivore, but this would go against my values. I married someone who felt the same way and we created a very healthy vegan child together who is almost an adult, never been on pharma products and has no chronic illnesses of any kind and is a fantastic athlete. Best.
I have learned a lot from Dr. Cowan when it comes to "germ theory" and I am thankful for that.
Unfortunately, Cowan's team already has a bias that if someone who comes into their clinic is on a vegan diet and having joint pain then it is likely due to NOT eating animals (claiming that vegans are collagen deficient). They wouldn't likely "diagnose" someone who eats meat with collagen deficiency who has the same condition, for example. This is a bias and unscientific perspective. It would be difficult for me to go to a health professional who believes (as it is a belief system) that being on a 100 percent plant based diet is inherently deficient. I have been vegan for 36 years and would not compromise my veganism because of fear based, ignorant, and bias perspectives. I was told many years ago that I could not be healthy as a vegan without some sort of animal supplementation, I have been told I could not have a healthy vegan pregnancy or raise a healthy vegan child. This is based on BS not evidence and glad that these health professionals did not intimidate me and convince me of this nonsense. Who are the animals that humans routinely exploit for their strength? Horses, oxen, elephants, the list goes on. These animals are complete herbivores; they get all of their protein (which is where collagen comes from) from plants. I am a vegan first and foremost for the animals of the world, I will not compromise my vegan principles for the BS "cures" of those who have a carnist perspective. With that all said, I am in my mid fifties and my joints feel fantastic. My vegan diet plays a big role in this, so does all things I seek to do that align with my vegan values, including being in nature, practicing yoga and qigong, and surrounding myself with good people, including my amazing vegan husband and son. Vegans be cautious of these biases.
Dawn, you do a great job, and I love your work but felt I must address this issue. Thank you.
Hi Carrie, I totally understand your position.
People can, and should, make their own decisions about the food they choose to eat.
The most important parts of the message of the New Biology Clinic, as far as I'm concerned, are that they consider what's going on in the person's whole life, not just in one part of the body, and that they encourage people to take responsibility for their own health. That's why I support their work.
Hi Dawn, I totally respect that notion "that they encourage people to take responsibility for their own health." Asher gave a couple of general examples, one of which was saying, paraphrasing, "Like you (Dawn) being on a vegan diet and coming to us with joint pain, it may be a collagen issue." That is an immediate bias. Why would vegans be lower in collagen than omnivores? I have for many years been a part of a private social media vegan pregnancy and parenting group. There were several pregnant women who came in frantic because they were told by their doctors that they needed to eat animal products to carry a healthy baby and/or to produce healthy breast milk. We had to calm them down and explain that these doctors do not know anything about what they are talking about. I breastfed my son until he was about 4 1/2 years old, exclusively for more than 6 months. I produced ample milk for his demands. There are many other examples I can give you, but I think you get the point. Vegans need to be cautious when they go to health professionals who have an immediate bias toward the notion that a vegan diet is inferior or deficient. Besides B12, which I question as it is really a microbe that our body absorbs, and is in fertile, healthy soil, all other nutrients, macro or micro, originally come from plants. Animals whose flesh is high in any of these nutrients, got them from consuming plants directly, or in the case of carnivores, they got them from the herbivorous animals they ate who first got them from the plants. The plant kingdom offers everything we need. We are also primates, like gorillas, who get all their nutrients from plants. This info goes out to all our vegan friends.
Some vegans have stopped being vegan because of the biases they have heard, particularly from health professionals, that are unfounded and this is tragic. How many people submitted to getting vaccinated out of fear and based on bias, unfounded perspectives? I remember Pam Popper saying in the past to never make medical decisions out of fear. Let this resonate with our vegan spirits. May we practice natural and holistic modalities or approaches that align with our vegan values. Peace.
Hello Carrie. Like you, I've not had animal products for many years [since 1980] & find comments saying my diet causes or will cause problems irritating, in the least. Because I know it bloody well hasnt, doesn't & won't. But I didn't want to state that on Dawn's podcast post. It was her first interview & felt it would have been a tad rude & insensitive. But hay, here I am saying it anyway 😏
The one vegan/collagen comment Asher made [at 3:15 ish] is the only thing so far that I disagree with in relation to their way of working [I'm probably not the only one]. But he did use the word 'may' & it was, as you stated, one of two examples . You suggested he directed it at Dawn - I can't hear or construed that. I did notice Dawn didn't indicate that she agreed with what was said, or talk about it further
I myself would not poo poo someone's work because I don't agree with 100% of what someone says. So I won't use the fact that Asher appears to briefly promote eating meat in the first interview I'd heard with him as a reason not to look into the Cowan's clinic. After all, it's not the foundation of what they do, & it was - again, as you stated - one of two examples he gave.
Hope you have a blessed day
Rev. Tina thank you for your response. I am not poo pooing the Clinic's work but warning vegans who may decide to go to someone who is considered holistic (or otherwise) who already have a bias that a vegan diet is inferior or deficient. I state this because it has happened to me in the past, particularly when I was a young vegan and to many other vegans I know. A holistic practitioner like this may not be the right fit for a said vegan. When Asher brought up that example, he was suggesting that a vegan may need to eat collagen rich foods (ie: animal products). Thus, this theoretical vegan, if complying, would no longer be acting as a vegan and thus compromising his or her principles unnecessarily, which is quite tragic. I was not trying to be insensitive when addressing this to Dawn, who is a vegan by the way. I respect all of Dawn's work and have shared her articles and her substack in general and her coauthored book What Really Makes You Ill (donating several copies to local libraries) to many people. Would I go to a holistic professional who sees my diet as inferior or deprived? Not likely, unless we weren't going to talk about it (if I was going for a massage or cranio sacral therapy for example).
One thing I didn't mention is, did Asher know Dawn was on a vegan diet? Probably so. So, it could be construed as a pointed remark, which is not cool. Am I a fan of Dr. Tom Cowan when he speaks of the fraud of germ theory? Yes, I have learned a lot from him and others, including, Dawn. Ironically understanding this fraud has enhanced and supported my natural approach to veganism. I love how things like this happen. Peace!
I'd go to the Cowan's clinic even though they may consider my diet 'inferior'. Because I'm sure they're professional enough to not look down their nose at me & adapt their advice &/or any treatment accordingly. Any 'health practitioner' that can't or won't do that should not be doing that job.
‘Vegan' is a label I don't use for myself though, as there are too many 'vegan' folks that treat it like a religion - a strict one at that, with rules that MUST be adhered to. I've seen many with an air of superiority & 'it's my way or the highway ' kind of attitude. I won't allow anyone or thing to dictate what my principles are or should be. I like to learn for myself - from my own mistakes, & make my own decisions & 'rules'.
Anyway, no point going round in circles eh. It's been an informative natter, I've learnt quite a bit about you!
Have a cracking day Cassie
I would consider going to someone who respected my vegan values as well. Meaning they would respect the fact that I would not submit to eating animal foods. Best.
I appreciate your thoughts but can I ask you a question more or less personal? What is your experience with living in a stable community with grand parents, parents and kids with a history of at least 100 years?
CM, not sure why you are directing this question to me? I don't know anyone who has had a generational history like you described, which is a loss of traditional human culture due to modern society. I think this is why some people are attracted to intentional communities, living closer to a more subsistence way of life with the help of a "family" or community of likeminded people.
I witnessed living in such community when I was a kid. My grandparents used to live in the country side in a community of about 800 people. And around that community, there were others smaller or bigger.
Their main source of food was animal products. I would say that their diet was comprised of about 80% animal products and 20% vegetables for six months of the year during summer and fall, and almost 100% animal products in the winter and spring.
One family with seven kids used to have cows, pigs, sheep and lots of birds. They used to cultivate potatoes and cereals but those were used to feed the animals and the birds.
I never heard of health issues at the time. They were living in their 90s, strong and physically fit.
As my parents moved to the urban area, we still kept the same way of eating lots of fats and meats. And my family rarely went visiting doctors.
But something happened about 30 years ago when I saw a lot of advertising and more and more people moved away from that type of diet into so called healthier options. And then I realized how many people got sicker and sicker. I still wonder to this day how hard is to find people to remember those times.
To me, what I witnessed is the only experience I trust. I respect your choice, don’t get me wrong but I think we need more time to really be sure if something is good or bad especially when it’s about food. Every single day, the media will announce another great discovery of something healthier than ever but then people get sicker and sicker. And I don’t think it’s not related to food.
I don't know if I mentioned earlier but I have been vegan for 36 years now and am a very healthy person.
I became a vegan for animal rights reasons first and foremost. But I learned a great deal about the benefits of a plant-based diet for human health at the same time I was shifting to a vegan diet. Donald Watson coined the term vegan in 1944 I believe and started the UK's Vegan Society. He lived until about 95. The year before he died, he did an intense mountain climb so his quality life appeared to be very good as well. Amos Bronson Alcott, the father of Louisa May, was a "vegan" back in the 1800s before the word was coined. Anyway, for me, I can be healthy on a vegan diet, better to be mostly whole foods, I am grateful for that because it aligns with my ethics or values. I am not saying I couldn't be healthy as an omnivore, but this would go against my values. I married someone who felt the same way and we created a very healthy vegan child together who is almost an adult, never been on pharma products and has no chronic illnesses of any kind and is a fantastic athlete. Best.
I don't have any experience of that, so I can't comment from a personal perspective.
Can I ask why you asked that question?
Sorry, my question was for Carrie?
Great info thank you for doing this !! Awesome 🔥🔥🔥🔥